[ajug-members] ajug, (good)interesting experience...

Thomas, Dave dthomas at tandbergtv.com
Thu May 22 15:27:24 EDT 2008 

Barclay,

Start by having a look at Joseph Cambell's essay called "Follow Your Bliss" - if you had to work for free, would you still want to be a programmer?  If you do what you love, you might not always be rich but at least you'll be happy.

Kerry has good advice.  Work hard, follow it, and be patient.

Definitely listen to Chris when it comes to grammar.  Your second email was more grammatical but I found it hard to read because it lacked capitalization.  We're not alone, read this:
http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Essays/smart-questions.html#writewell

Before I get you any more discouraged, do this:
*  Run Linux on your home desktop.  Sysadmin experience gave me a leg up in interviews.
*  Almost job you can get in IT will get doing some kind of programming or scripting.  Sysadmins like automation.  If you can afford to take a step down in pay in exchange for experience, do that.
*  Once you've gotten kicked around the programming workforce, read O'Reilly's Head First Design Patterns.  Don't expect to understand it until you've made enough mistakes.  Your mistakes will reach a critical mass.

Some of the best programmers I've worked with only had high school degrees.  I wouldn't call them engineers, because I think having systems experience and formal education is needed to get good at architecture.  But they could deliver working code faster than I could at the time.  I've seen not at all uncommon to see people with no CS degree but math, EE become more senior faster (because of their natural talents).

Good luck!

Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Kerry Wilson [mailto:kwilson at wmsco.com]
Sent: Thu 5/22/2008 10:21 AM
To: ajug-members at ajug.org
Subject: Re: [ajug-members] ajug, (good)interesting experience...
 
People are always happy to tell you why you cannot do something, no matter
what it is.

The easiest way to learn programming is to start a project, small at first,
and build on it.
Scratch your own itch.  So, you are a math teacher?  Maybe you should create
a small website for your classes.

1. Learn HTML / Javascript / CSS - Make a site where you distribute lesson
plans, quizzes, etc.
2. Add some Java (or ASP.NET *gasp*) - Maybe a login where people can see
their grades, or a calendar app perhaps
3. Study Design Patterns and learn a framework - Is your website working for
you?  Maybe you should package it for sell or host it for others

Who knows if you do this you may not need someone else to hire you at all!
It is a process for sure, for learning Java I recommend Core Servlets &
JavaServer Pages.  It may be a little old, but I loved that book.  Once you
are pretty familiar with servlets / JSP, you should be able to see why we
need frameworks and start to learn one.  Spring MVC and JSF is pretty
popular now, but who knows what it will be when you get to that point.  The
steepest learning curve to me learning JEE was getting app server
configuration down, but I that was doing everything myself.  Some hosts will
help you with that.

Good Luck,

kerry


-----Original Message-----
From: 521 [mailto:521 at ofig.org] 
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 11:42 AM
To: ajug-members at ajug.org
Subject: Re: [ajug-members] ajug, (good)interesting experience...

that is quite depressing, i understood why you said it though, as i was just

throwing thoughts into a user-group email- i will respond with the
following; 
i have spent a lot of time involved in (first) hardware, (second) tcp/ip, 
(third) web/html/ftp/stuff, (fourth) procedural programming, and finally 
(currently only about 1  yrs) oop/java... -maybe i'll stick with teaching
8th 
grade math...  :)

this sounds like i am argueing, i am not though- maybe 
programming/logic/analysis/patterns is not for me; and i see what you are 
saying in that 'even' jr. programmer-positions (most of them) require 2-3
yrs 
experience...  i guess i need those 3 and 4 hundred-level 'college' courses 
(thousands of hours) that would make the difference

thanks for you input chris, good luck to you...

my plan is to keep applying for programmer-jobs/positions

barclay




On Thu, 22 May 2008 09:46:16 -0400, Chris Abney wrote 
> What is java/flat-file/home-grown ?   
> 
> The grammar in your email is not good.  This has nothing to do with 
> Programming but it has a lot to do with the kind of work you would be 
> expected to do as a programmer. 
> Most... Strike that.  All positions in IT will involve some degree of 
> technical writing.   
> 
> Without being able to impress others with significant university level 
> academic experience in computer science you will need to have 
> significant project work to show. 
> Come up with a personal project - Some sort of program to design and 
> build.  Some people do free work for open source projects. 
> Build it; Then document it on the web. 
> Using book author quality technical writing, you should show that you 
> understand the design issues, design patterns, programming idioms and 
> how to write code. 
> 
> This should sound like a lot of work.  If you really want to get into IT 
> (programming anyway) just patently and consistently put in the hours. 
> Today, it is the rare exception that people begin a successful lasting, 
> careers as a programmer with just a desire and few continuing education 
> classes. 
> Remember, most of the people you are competing with spent a LOT of money 
> to be able to work 2 or 3 thousand hours a year (in college) to be able 
> to be programmers. 
> If you haven't done the equivalent, then you are asking for something 
> extra. 
> 
> The good news is - If you enjoy programming, a project like this should 
> be fun. 
> 
> Chris Abney 
> chris at abney.info 
> Former Java study group leader 
> Answerer of this question many times over 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: mcdaniel [mailto:521 at ofig.org] 
> Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 6:50 PM 
> To: ajug-members at ajug.org 
> Subject: [ajug-members] ajug, (good)interesting experience... 
> 
> good stuff there at ajug... -i smiled inside... 
> i'm a one-year java/oop programmer as i understand procedural 
> programming for a while- i was at the ajug last evening/night and was at 
> the eat-ery before-hand, i spoke with nice/helpful people there 
> (thanks).  i need help (i think)- i just passed java2 for programmers at 
> a local tech school- via, they used this product: learnkey.com [ 
> http://www.learnkey.com/Java2_for_Programmers ]- with an above 80% grade 
> (which 'only' means i can 'tell' (some)one  /*casting*/ or 'do' 
> fair/basic java stuff)... at any rate- i like who/what i learned-about 
> last evening, and wanted to say the following- 
> 
> i can get interviews but can not get hired because the chicken came 
> before the egg, i mean the egg came before the chicken 
> 
> hire? no-experience; experience? no-hire... 
> -at rate(any)... 
> i liked the man that spoke, and i think the word 'vehicle' should be the 
> class for 'water', 'land', or 'air' as the type-of-shipping (as 
> boat/submarine, plane/helicopter , or truck/van/train)- shoot, there's 
> more categories (already...); however, i played it safe (as the 
> person-type that the speaker spoke-about) and said nothing- until the 
> end... (project-clean'up/project-pre'execution/what-ever-the-term(s)); 
> thanks, i learned/was-able-to-understand-larger-issues from my time 
> spent; also, i was the one asking the question about interfaces which 
> lead to the bomb discussion [from the response(s)] from a few weeks ago- 
> 
> humor, maybe? (below): 
> 
> the interface is java's dynamic programming...-cast everything in a 
> switch/case 
> 
> i'm a php/mysql (ish) becomming java/flat-file/home-grown 
> 
> i'm asking-for, i guess... if one can give (if you have the time) 
> advise/comments for-getting-hired-via career change... 
> 
> http://ofig.org/it 
> 
> sincerely, -barclay 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> ajug-members mailing list 
> ajug-members at ajug.org 
> http://www.ajug.org/mailman/listinfo/ajug-members 
> 
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