[ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta

Thu Aug 2 23:19:32 EDT 2007

I could barely keep up with the discussion because the posts were coming so fast...  But here are a couple points I want to add because I haven't seen them made (or maybe I just missed them):

In my experience as a VP of Development and as a consultant, I've seen more projects that just didn't get done for lack of resources than got outsourced to India or elsewhere.  Not doing a project is virtually always an option, and is usually easier than outsourcing.  Who knows how many jobs those projects would have created if the (right) people were available.  

If you set your standards very high on the folks you will hire, you have a really tough time filling positions (even if you advertize on AJUG jobs), but if you set your standards lower, you will end up with crap for a product (I know.  I inherited one of those.  Ask Dean Saxe).  It still takes people to design products and write code, and the quality of the output depends on the quality of the input.  Do you think it is really easier to find great people in third-world countries than in the US?  While there are a lot of Indians and Chinese and Phillipinos, etc, they have a long way to go in terms of democratizing quality education in order to transform those large numbers of people into large numbers of qualified IT professionals, and the leadtime for producing IT professionals is rather long.  Given the growth rate of the need for IT professionals in the US and world wide, I don't see there being an excess of top-notch IT pros for a long time (or ever).
  Not a high percentage of people from societies where people make $2000/yr end up getting Masters degrees in CS.  Those that do might manage to make a good living though, and might even end up getting to come to the US on an H1B.  I wish them the best of luck and hope they will send me their resume after they finish their "indentured servitude".

Does having access to talent in India and elsewhere lower IT salaries in Atlanta?  Yes, absolutely.  Instead of making $75 an hour you would be making $150, but there would be many fewer jobs out there as well.  Only the "critical" projects would get done, and the economy would probably stagnate as technical innovation slowed.  Innovation depends on the number of ideas that are floating around and how many people have access to the information.  The more ideas and the more IT people, the more innovations and the IT more jobs, worldwide.  Economics is not just supply and demand and scarcity thinking.  The size of the pie matters as much as, or more than, the number of pieces, so focus on making the pie bigger for everyone rather than just protecting your piece. 

On the immigration side, there's no doubt we need to be a world leader in attracting the best and brightest people no matter where they are from, but I think it is equally important to make sure we are a world leader at educating our own people so that they are among the best and brightest.  Good training is even more rare than smarts.  I heard that the Georgia high school graduation rate is somewhere around 60%.  That is going to hurt the growth of the economy, and hence the number of available IT jobs, more than an influx of foreigners.  Please write your congress person about that instead.

And by the way, $75/hr is pretty damn good, and I haven't seen any credible predictions that is likely to decrease over the next 20 years, Wipro or not.

Douglas Morgan, Ph.D. 
President 
Breakpoint LLC 
Suite 100 
1217 Bellaire Drive 
Atlanta, GA 30319 
404.316.8451 phone 
866.308.3261 fax 
doug.morgan at breakpointllc.com

----- Original Message ----
From: Burr Sutter <burrsutter at gmail.com>
To: General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month) <ajug-members at ajug.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2007 9:18:15 PM
Subject: RE: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta

That sounds like the right strategy entrance based on merit and no vendor lock in.  

Now how does a simple gathering of elite software developers make enough noise to get the attention of the rest of the nation?

-----Original Message-----
From: "Paul Bemowski" <bemowski at yahoo.com>
To: "General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)" <ajug-members at ajug.org>
Sent: 8/2/07 8:42 PM
Subject: RE: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta

In the UK they have something called the Highly Skilled Migrant Programme - which
attempts to do what you suggest below. As the title indicates, HSMP provides work
visas to qualified applicants who can score enough points on a qualifying test - and
then back up that score with documentation to prove you are qualified.  
http://www.workingintheuk.gov.uk/working_in_the_uk/EN/homepage/schemes_and_programmes/hsmp.html

Australia has a similar program:
http://www.workpermit.com/australia/point_calculator.htm

Not exactly "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses.." but in terms of
competition in a global economy, it seems to make more sense to qualify people based
on merit.  Over time, if we allow anyone in - and the UK and AU focus on allowing in
only highly skilled immigrants - it will be to their advantage.

Also - because these programs give people unrestricted work visas - they compete
head to head with local talent.  H1Bs are payed very low wages because they are
basically indentured servants to the company owning the visa.  They cannot just
switch companies - if they could, they would for higher rates - and the situation
would be very different.  The companies do not 'own' the talent because of the visa.
So - programs like HSMP do not lower wages as much, and they definitely raise the
bar in terms of talent.  

My guess is that powerful corporate lobbyists prevent programs like HSMP here.  The
companies love to import cheap talent that cannot easily switch companies,  

Such a program is even more difficult to argue against.  

I have a UK HSMP visa - if anyone is interested in learning about my experience on
the UK visa program, I'm happy to share offline.

Paul

--- Burr Sutter <burrsutter at gmail.com> wrote:

> What would I say to my congressman?
> 
>  
> 
> I've already forgotten which of the visa programs which is based on a
> "lottery" system.  I personally think that stinks.  The best and brightest
> should make the cut first. As we know, a single really talented "A team
> player" can out produce 10 or more "B or C" players.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org [mailto:ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org]
> On Behalf Of Brian Whitfield / Essential Resources
> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 5:35 PM
> To: 'General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)'
> Subject: RE: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta
> 
>  
> 
> Didn't mean to start a debate.  Just wanted to point it out.  For those of
> you that see it as a negative - contact your congressman.  For those of you
> that don't, then don't.  
> 
>  
> 
> A few good points made.  Be different and better than them.  
> 
>  

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