[ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta

Thu Aug 2 17:45:07 EDT 2007

Kieth - 

Thanks for directing us to the ITAA web site.  It is interesting, and I didn't know
much about it - so I read a bit expecting to find some protectionist propaganda.  I
found this, under Policy -> Immigration, i thought it interesting, but it seems
counter to your arguments:

"No country has the monopoly on very smart people. When skill shortages in local
markets leave employers without qualified job applicants, business immigration
programs like the H1-B visa provide firms with the flexibility to turn to global
sources for technical specialists. With an eye towards America's competitive future,
Congress created the H1-B visa program in order to help U.S. companies gain access
to critical talent. By doing so, lawmakers set in motion a process that helps
organizations innovate, grow and create jobs for American workers. An enlightened
approach to business immigration assures that the U.S. will continue to attract
highly specialized technical professionals from around the world, keep access
barriers to overseas markets low, and remain in a position to meet global
competition head-on. Restricting the capacity of U.S. corporations to sufficiently
tap into the global talent pool undermines their ability to compete."

Enlightened stuff.

As for my opinion - the outsourcing of IT jobs is no different than other
revolutions in the history of business: robots replacing autoworkers, computers
replacing clerical workers, or Chinese companies replacing manufacturing workers. 
Each of those industries fought against the loss of their highly payed jobs to other
entities, and they all lost.  

At the same time, we love our cheap cars, and cheap goods for china.  A
protectionist policy here doesn't really make sense.  Its sad that one day it may be
my job that goes away - but I've planned for this for years.  If you think in 10
years you're still going to be hacking java, think again.  This is the nature of the
global economy.

So - start planning for your future.  The strength of the US is our innovation and
our open business practices, not protectionist policies (I assume you are advocating
woting for protectionist policies to stop the Wipros of the world).  It didn't work
for steel, car makers, cotton growers, or skilled manufacturing labor.  IT
outsourcing (and its role in the global economy) won't be stopped... now is the time
to start planning what you're going to do about it.

Good luck to all.

Paul 

--- Keith Welch <kwelch at mindspring.com> wrote:

---------------------------------
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Uh, maybe you didn't get the memo. They will NOT be hiring natives as developers to
any major extent. They will hire native project managers, perhaps. I have seen them
do that. I cannot believe the absolute naivete I see among development people.
Doesn't anyone understand that bringing in cheap L-1s and H-1bs is the point of this
move? These guys are coming to make a profit, not bask in Java one-ness. Everyone
seems to be using any rationalization they can think of to deny the obvious. 

I saw how the Wipro people work. They bring in L-1's and H-1b's to front for their
offshore operation, and rotate them back to India so that they can bring in more
people to train at their client's expense. That is not conjecture. I have been
there. I have seen them. Satyam and Wipro doing this is why no GE (as in the largest
company in America) business unit hires very few American software people anymore. I
expect for the people who are profiting by this to try to diminish how bad this is.
I'm just amazed at how "They haven't managed to offshore my job yet" translates into
"This is a good thing for me" for some of you. 

The ITAA claims that they are going to offshore the majority of remaining software
development jobs between now and 2015, unless we stop them. If you don't know who
the ITAA is, then you don't deserve to be commenting on this topic. NASCOM (same
admonition) claims that we are violating international law by not allowing a
completely unfettered flow of perhaps a million of software developers into the US.
Ponder that for a moment. There are only 600,000 here now. Polish up on those
spatula skills.

Before someone chimes in an claims that he would embrace them as brothers (oh,
please spare me), or that would make the U.S. more competitive, bear in mind that
you would be embracing them permanently unemployment. Political correctness is a
major impediment to rational discussion, here. Opposing corrupt practices and
economic irresponsibility does not make you a racist (I'm curious as to what race
that would be opposing, as there are H-1b's and L-1s of every possible variation -
including English-speaking caucasians). Software developement people are
second-class citizens in the country, exposed directly to international wage
competition like no one else. That includes sponsored people. Our common enemy is
offshoring. Stop deluding yourselves.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Burr Sutter 
Sent: Aug 2, 2007 3:57 PM 
To: "'General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)'" 
Subject: RE: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta 

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}w\:*
{behavior:url(#default#VML);}.shape
{behavior:url(#default#VML);}st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }     
I'm not getting the "big deal" here.

If Wipro tries to hire 1000 people in Atlanta it should drive up salaries.  There
are not 1000 talented people in the unemployment line here in Atlanta.   Now if they
plan to also build some sort of low rent apartment complex where 4 programmers live
in a single room and import all of those 1000 people then that is another story. 
Otherwise, I'm not sure how they'll escape paying the market rate for Atlanta-based
talent.   

Keep in mind, all of those "foreigners" (and the article suggests they wish to hire
local talent, not import offshore talent) will eventually learn to like living in
single-family homes, going to Braves games, drinking $4 beverages from Starbucks,
flat-screen TVs, just like the rest of us 2nd/3rd/4th generation Americans.

The most negatively impacted would be Accenture, Unisys, IBM Global Services, etc
since WiPro is a competitor of theirs.  The smaller consulting companies should
continue to offer their special valued added services at reasonable rates.

---------------------------------

From: ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org [mailto:ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org] On Behalf
Of Brian Whitfield / Essential Resources
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:01 PM
To: 'General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)'
Subject: RE: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta

There are LOTS of reasons this is bad.  I'll give a big one - If there is a company
in Atlanta that has hundreds of java developers working for rates typically below
those of American workers - what do you think that does for rates/salaries, etc?  If
all of a sudden the market is flooded with java people - what does that do for
supply and demand?  This can and will affect the IT market in Atlanta.  It has to.  

I'll be ok.  I'm not for total 'protectionism'.  I am also not for the 9-10
companies that dominate the use of h1 visas under the guise they couldn't find any
workers in America (of which Wipro is one of them).  

Brian Whitfield
Essential Resources
phone: 770-271-3755
tollfree: 866-837-3755
fax:      770-271-9739
brianw at essentialresources.net

---------------------------------

From: ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org [mailto:ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org] On Behalf
Of Dean H. Saxe
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 12:31 PM
To: General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)
Subject: Re: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta

I'm not exactly sure how this is bad for you, Brian. If you can't compete in a
global marketplace then perhaps its time to find a new line of work. (No, I'm not
targeting you in particular, I meant the statement in general.) 

I'd love if you can help me understand why this is bad news in your opinion.

-dhs

Dean H. Saxe, CISSP, CEH

dean at fullfrontalnerdity.com

"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds." 

--Einstein

On Aug 2, 2007, at 11:38 AM, Brian Whitfield / Essential Resources wrote:

Not entirely java unrelated (we'll compete with these guys for jobs)

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9027525

I don't consider this good news. You can bet most of them will not be local Atlanta
people that are hired. I've sent the GA congressman emails stating we should fight
this. Maybe all the ajug members should do the same. 

Brian Whitfield

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