[ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta

Thu Aug 2 17:20:01 EDT 2007

At the risk of turning this into a lovefest, which is boring, I agree - especially with the point of each of us being a business.  In that world, responding to change is a fundamental business skill (actually, requirement).  This is no different.

>From buggy whips to Ford to Toyota...outsourcing, just a different shade of the same thing.

=============================
Scott A. Brown
President, Sability
404.521.2001
404.862.3600 - cell
Scott.Brown at sability.com

----- "Bill Forsyth" <Bill.Forsyth at s1.com> wrote:
> Yes folks. Let's be practical here (if we can experience a
> "suspension
> of idealism" even momentarily.) 
> 
> Do you actually think that you are going to turn around or stop the
> offshoring through some unnatural act?
> 
> The roles being shipped overseas are now seen as commodity roles.
> It's
> over. (Or in the words from the movie "The Professional", "it's ovah!
> Leon's dead!" (And forget the miniscule Atlanta thing since it's a
> small
> tick in the bucket of the larger picture causing all the hurt
> feelings.)
> So if you plan to stay in the business of being hired as an employee
> in
> the software industry the only option you're left with is to
> differentiate yourself somehow so that *you* are not considered to be
> a
> commodity too. Otherwise you won't make it in the long run because
> you're too expensive. (I wonder how long it took typewriter companies
> to
> quit trying to make and sell them after the "new-fangled" word
> processor
> showed up?)
> 
> Maybe this thread could turn to a more constructive and practical
> focus
> if people would offer ideas about differentation, self-employment,
> and
> the like, i.e. how to roll with the inevitable and come out on top.
> Here
> are some that come to mind:
> 
> 1. Become expert at coming trends like what I call "composite"
> application development where you assemble open source technologies,
> add
> some value, and align with a business need.
> 
> 2. Become expert at so-called Web 2.0 stuff like Ajax. It's coming
> folks.
> 
> 3. Come up with your own shit and stop relying on these sorry
> corporations to take care of you, which they won't. It will only
> continue to get worse.
> 
> 4. Be the "entrepreneurial architect" that specializes in bringing
> people together to get things done within a company, i.e. the person
> that has to be there "in person."
> 
> 5. In general, lift your focus to solving business problems using
> technology as opposed to getting more and more into the technical
> detail
> (programmer) roles. Those are the commodity now.
> 
> 6. Become an expert lecturer on outsourcing to India (or China or
> Russia) :). Not my cup of tea but just an idea! :D
> 
> peace,
> -Forsyth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org
> [mailto:ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org] On Behalf Of Justin Meads
> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 3:53 PM
> To: General AJUG membership forum ((100-200 messages/month))
> Subject: Re: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta
> 
> Amen.
> 
> -Justin
> 
> On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:42 PM, Scott Brown wrote:
> 
> > I certainly do enjoy a good debate- there should be more of this on 
> 
> > the list.  Anyway, having said that....
> >
> > 1)  It matters not if we welcome Wipro here are not.  They are
> coming.
> >
> > 2) There are developers in other parts of the world with the skills 
> 
> > to work at much lower cost
> >
> > 3) Expecting or are depending on government to step in and block  
> > access to those markets is naive.
> >
> > Whether it's a good thing for Atlanta is academic.  I think the  
> > question is how to differentiate one's self to justify the cost  
> > premium.  There are many things that come to mind:  specialization 
> 
> > (niche markets), vertical (industry knowledge), quality, and local 
> 
> > access.
> >
> > I do think it's possible, however, it does require a solid  
> > strategy, tactical plan and execution of that plan.
> >
> >
> > =============================
> > Scott A. Brown
> > President, Sability
> > 404.521.2001
> > 404.862.3600 - cell
> > Scott.Brown at sability.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Keith Welch" <kwelch at mindspring.com>
> > To: ajug-members at ajug.org
> > Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2007 3:07:40 PM (GMT-0500)
> America/New_York
> > Subject: RE: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta
> >
> > It is Java related, as you can bet that will be a significant part 
> 
> > of their picture. Their business model would probably involve one  
> > onshore employee (an L-1) per 5-10 working offshore doing the heavy 
> 
> > lifting. There would be 1,000 employees locally. Do the math. With 
> 
> > enough unscrupulous employers in the area, that could locally drive 
> 
> > salaries down below the point that it would make sense to stay in  
> > the area. We have already seen a 15% drop in tech employment in  
> > this area since 1999.
> >
> > You guys can sit around and pretend these Wipro people aren't  
> > intruders intent on making a living taking food off your family's  
> > table. I won't. I have seen how this works, up close and personal. 
> 
> > Those of you who are currently or previously sponsored should be  
> > the MOST concerned. Companies that sponsor are much more likely to 
> 
> > jump at offshore services. It is stupid that we are all so timid  
> > talking about this. We all are in the same job market, and all  
> > suffer the same consequences when there are predatory forays by  
> > such companies as Wipro.
> >
> > We are all in the same situation. You can't get away from this by  
> > competing more effectively with each other. Whether you work for a 
> 
> > company that sponsors and offshores or not, depressed salaries  
> > affect the entire profession. Recruiters, it is pointless for you  
> > to remain silent on this, too. Cut the placements here by 25%, and 
> 
> > cut the salaries down another 25%, and you too, are in a much  
> > different tax bracket. I should point out that I get 5-10 calls a  
> > week from out-of-town foreign recruiters hawking Atlanta jobs, if  
> > you wonder where the low end of the business went.
> >
> > It is protectionism to protect companies. They are not the ones at 
> 
> > risk here. It is depraved indifference not to protect the people  
> > who work here, and have to pay taxes and pay the cost of living  
> > here. That includes sponsored people. Don't let someone whip such a 
> 
> > loaded word as protectionism out on you when it is factually  
> > inaccurate. If your company wants to sell here, but send work  
> > offshore to avoid the cost of our taxes and cost of living, then  
> > its business model just doesn't work. Creating policies to  
> > selectively subsidize businesses to pursue non-sustainable business 
> 
> > activity is the real protectionism. Your legislators have simply  
> > decided to designate us as the victims.
> >
> >
> > Let me be the first to say it. Wipro, you are not welcome here.
> >
> > http://www.brightfuturejobs.org/news/index.cfm
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian Whitfield / Essential Resources
> > Sent: Aug 2, 2007 11:38 AM
> > To: ajug-members at www.ajug.org
> > Subject: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta
> >
> > Not entirely java unrelated (we'll compete with these guys for
> jobs)
> >
> >  http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do? 
> > command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9027525
> >
> > I don't consider this good news.  You can bet most of them will not 
> 
> > be local Atlanta people that are hired.  I've sent the GA  
> > congressman emails stating we should fight this.  Maybe all the  
> > ajug members should do the same.
> > Brian Whitfield
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Trujillo, Marty"
> > Sent: Aug 2, 2007 2:37 PM
> > To: "General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)"
> > Subject: RE: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta
> >
> > Leif,
> >
> >
> > I think it's obvious that dumping 500+ java developers on the  
> > Atlanta market would drive the price paid for an individual  
> > developer down.  With that said (written) it's not obvious that  
> > Wipro will be bringing 500+ developers with them.  My guess is that 
> 
> > Wipro believes that they will be able to make a nice profit by  
> > finding contracts here (the South East) and then managing teams  
> > (made up of people here in Atlanta and elsewhere) that will  
> > implement those projects.  I would guess that they will try to send 
> 
> > as much work as possible to cheaper venues, but that they are  
> > admitting that some of the work will need to be done here too.
> >
> >
> > I think this is probably a positive event for developers in  
> > Atlanta, but a negative event for developers in the US.
> >
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> >
> > Marty
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org [mailto:ajug-members- 
> > bounces at ajug.org] On Behalf Of Leif Wells
> > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 2:18 PM
> > To: General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)
> > Subject: Re: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta
> >
> >
> > Brian,
> >
> > I am not trying to tell you that you are wrong, nor do I know any  
> > insider information about this situation, but in reading the  
> > article you mentioned I don't really see what large effect this  
> > will have on our community as a whole.
> >
> > Are you assuming that people from other countries are going to come 
> 
> > in and take these jobs?
> > Are you assuming that having 1000 (probably closer to 500) more  
> > developers in Atlanta is going to make a dent in the world-wide  
> > Enterprise Java market talent shortage?
> > Do you think, since the article cites the "labor force and  
> > proximity to technical schools" as reasons for choosing Atlanta,  
> > that they will be poaching your clients or employees?
> >
> > I am just trying to get a handle on why you'd think that more local 
> 
> > options Java developers (both the inexperienced and the highly  
> > experienced) makes for bad news.
> >
> > Seriously, I would like to better understand why this would be bad.
> >
> > Leif
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/2/07, Brian Whitfield / Essential Resources <  
> > brian_whitfield at mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> > There are LOTS of reasons this is bad.  I'll give a big one - If  
> > there is a company in Atlanta that has hundreds of java developers 
> 
> > working for rates typically below those of American workers - what 
> 
> > do you think that does for rates/salaries, etc?  If all of a sudden 
> 
> > the market is flooded with java people - what does that do for  
> > supply and demand?  This can and will affect the IT market in  
> > Atlanta.  It has to.
> >
> >
> >
> >
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