[ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta

Keith Welch kwelch at mindspring.com
Thu Aug 2 17:09:01 EDT 2007 

>Do you actually think that you are going to turn around or stop the offshoring through some unnatural act?

Unnatural act, like you calling your congressman, or congress actually voting on something that protects us? There is nothing sacred about deciding that millions need to be sacrificed for the sake of the few hundred. Our greatest enemy is your apathy.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Forsyth <Bill.Forsyth at s1.com>
>Sent: Aug 2, 2007 4:40 PM
>To: "General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)" <ajug-members at ajug.org>
>Subject: RE: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta
>
>Yes folks. Let's be practical here (if we can experience a "suspension
>of idealism" even momentarily.) 
>
>Do you actually think that you are going to turn around or stop the
>offshoring through some unnatural act?
>
>The roles being shipped overseas are now seen as commodity roles. It's
>over. (Or in the words from the movie "The Professional", "it's ovah!
>Leon's dead!" (And forget the miniscule Atlanta thing since it's a small
>tick in the bucket of the larger picture causing all the hurt feelings.)
>So if you plan to stay in the business of being hired as an employee in
>the software industry the only option you're left with is to
>differentiate yourself somehow so that *you* are not considered to be a
>commodity too. Otherwise you won't make it in the long run because
>you're too expensive. (I wonder how long it took typewriter companies to
>quit trying to make and sell them after the "new-fangled" word processor
>showed up?)
>
>Maybe this thread could turn to a more constructive and practical focus
>if people would offer ideas about differentation, self-employment, and
>the like, i.e. how to roll with the inevitable and come out on top. Here
>are some that come to mind:
>
>1. Become expert at coming trends like what I call "composite"
>application development where you assemble open source technologies, add
>some value, and align with a business need.
>
>2. Become expert at so-called Web 2.0 stuff like Ajax. It's coming
>folks.
>
>3. Come up with your own shit and stop relying on these sorry
>corporations to take care of you, which they won't. It will only
>continue to get worse.
>
>4. Be the "entrepreneurial architect" that specializes in bringing
>people together to get things done within a company, i.e. the person
>that has to be there "in person."
>
>5. In general, lift your focus to solving business problems using
>technology as opposed to getting more and more into the technical detail
>(programmer) roles. Those are the commodity now.
>
>6. Become an expert lecturer on outsourcing to India (or China or
>Russia) :). Not my cup of tea but just an idea! :D
>
>peace,
>-Forsyth
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org
>[mailto:ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org] On Behalf Of Justin Meads
>Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 3:53 PM
>To: General AJUG membership forum ((100-200 messages/month))
>Subject: Re: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta
>
>Amen.
>
>-Justin
>
>On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:42 PM, Scott Brown wrote:
>
>> I certainly do enjoy a good debate- there should be more of this on  
>> the list.  Anyway, having said that....
>>
>> 1)  It matters not if we welcome Wipro here are not.  They are coming.
>>
>> 2) There are developers in other parts of the world with the skills  
>> to work at much lower cost
>>
>> 3) Expecting or are depending on government to step in and block  
>> access to those markets is naive.
>>
>> Whether it's a good thing for Atlanta is academic.  I think the  
>> question is how to differentiate one's self to justify the cost  
>> premium.  There are many things that come to mind:  specialization  
>> (niche markets), vertical (industry knowledge), quality, and local  
>> access.
>>
>> I do think it's possible, however, it does require a solid  
>> strategy, tactical plan and execution of that plan.
>>
>>
>> =============================
>> Scott A. Brown
>> President, Sability
>> 404.521.2001
>> 404.862.3600 - cell
>> Scott.Brown at sability.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Keith Welch" <kwelch at mindspring.com>
>> To: ajug-members at ajug.org
>> Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2007 3:07:40 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
>> Subject: RE: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta
>>
>> It is Java related, as you can bet that will be a significant part  
>> of their picture. Their business model would probably involve one  
>> onshore employee (an L-1) per 5-10 working offshore doing the heavy  
>> lifting. There would be 1,000 employees locally. Do the math. With  
>> enough unscrupulous employers in the area, that could locally drive  
>> salaries down below the point that it would make sense to stay in  
>> the area. We have already seen a 15% drop in tech employment in  
>> this area since 1999.
>>
>> You guys can sit around and pretend these Wipro people aren't  
>> intruders intent on making a living taking food off your family's  
>> table. I won't. I have seen how this works, up close and personal.  
>> Those of you who are currently or previously sponsored should be  
>> the MOST concerned. Companies that sponsor are much more likely to  
>> jump at offshore services. It is stupid that we are all so timid  
>> talking about this. We all are in the same job market, and all  
>> suffer the same consequences when there are predatory forays by  
>> such companies as Wipro.
>>
>> We are all in the same situation. You can't get away from this by  
>> competing more effectively with each other. Whether you work for a  
>> company that sponsors and offshores or not, depressed salaries  
>> affect the entire profession. Recruiters, it is pointless for you  
>> to remain silent on this, too. Cut the placements here by 25%, and  
>> cut the salaries down another 25%, and you too, are in a much  
>> different tax bracket. I should point out that I get 5-10 calls a  
>> week from out-of-town foreign recruiters hawking Atlanta jobs, if  
>> you wonder where the low end of the business went.
>>
>> It is protectionism to protect companies. They are not the ones at  
>> risk here. It is depraved indifference not to protect the people  
>> who work here, and have to pay taxes and pay the cost of living  
>> here. That includes sponsored people. Don't let someone whip such a  
>> loaded word as protectionism out on you when it is factually  
>> inaccurate. If your company wants to sell here, but send work  
>> offshore to avoid the cost of our taxes and cost of living, then  
>> its business model just doesn't work. Creating policies to  
>> selectively subsidize businesses to pursue non-sustainable business  
>> activity is the real protectionism. Your legislators have simply  
>> decided to designate us as the victims.
>>
>>
>> Let me be the first to say it. Wipro, you are not welcome here.
>>
>> http://www.brightfuturejobs.org/news/index.cfm
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brian Whitfield / Essential Resources
>> Sent: Aug 2, 2007 11:38 AM
>> To: ajug-members at www.ajug.org
>> Subject: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta
>>
>> Not entirely java unrelated (we'll compete with these guys for jobs)
>>
>>  http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do? 
>> command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9027525
>>
>> I don't consider this good news.  You can bet most of them will not  
>> be local Atlanta people that are hired.  I've sent the GA  
>> congressman emails stating we should fight this.  Maybe all the  
>> ajug members should do the same.
>> Brian Whitfield
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Trujillo, Marty"
>> Sent: Aug 2, 2007 2:37 PM
>> To: "General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)"
>> Subject: RE: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta
>>
>> Leif,
>>
>>
>> I think it's obvious that dumping 500+ java developers on the  
>> Atlanta market would drive the price paid for an individual  
>> developer down.  With that said (written) it's not obvious that  
>> Wipro will be bringing 500+ developers with them.  My guess is that  
>> Wipro believes that they will be able to make a nice profit by  
>> finding contracts here (the South East) and then managing teams  
>> (made up of people here in Atlanta and elsewhere) that will  
>> implement those projects.  I would guess that they will try to send  
>> as much work as possible to cheaper venues, but that they are  
>> admitting that some of the work will need to be done here too.
>>
>>
>> I think this is probably a positive event for developers in  
>> Atlanta, but a negative event for developers in the US.
>>
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>>
>> Marty
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org [mailto:ajug-members- 
>> bounces at ajug.org] On Behalf Of Leif Wells
>> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 2:18 PM
>> To: General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)
>> Subject: Re: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta
>>
>>
>> Brian,
>>
>> I am not trying to tell you that you are wrong, nor do I know any  
>> insider information about this situation, but in reading the  
>> article you mentioned I don't really see what large effect this  
>> will have on our community as a whole.
>>
>> Are you assuming that people from other countries are going to come  
>> in and take these jobs?
>> Are you assuming that having 1000 (probably closer to 500) more  
>> developers in Atlanta is going to make a dent in the world-wide  
>> Enterprise Java market talent shortage?
>> Do you think, since the article cites the "labor force and  
>> proximity to technical schools" as reasons for choosing Atlanta,  
>> that they will be poaching your clients or employees?
>>
>> I am just trying to get a handle on why you'd think that more local  
>> options Java developers (both the inexperienced and the highly  
>> experienced) makes for bad news.
>>
>> Seriously, I would like to better understand why this would be bad.
>>
>> Leif
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/2/07, Brian Whitfield / Essential Resources <  
>> brian_whitfield at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> There are LOTS of reasons this is bad.  I'll give a big one - If  
>> there is a company in Atlanta that has hundreds of java developers  
>> working for rates typically below those of American workers - what  
>> do you think that does for rates/salaries, etc?  If all of a sudden  
>> the market is flooded with java people - what does that do for  
>> supply and demand?  This can and will affect the IT market in  
>> Atlanta.  It has to.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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