[ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta

Thu Aug 2 16:15:22 EDT 2007

Hey Scott,

I completely agree with your points.

Even if we were able to block Wipro from coming here it would just be
some other out sourcing company in some other locale.  Someone mentioned
that there would probably be 1 local employee for every 10 offshore
employees.  Local developers (including myself) are probably lucky to
have a crack at the 1 local position.  If Charlotte, Miami, DC... become
the hub we won't even have a shot at the 1 job.

We just happen to live in a time of IT arbitrage and it's only a matter
of time before the cost of enterprise software development in the US
will be the same as the cost of software development in India (which
will probably not be enough income to support a family in the US).  It's
a bummer, but the ride should last a few years longer for us if Atlanta
is the hub.

No one ever said that the high salaries in IT will last forever and
that's why so many college students are shying away from IT.

I think the biggest question is not whether being a Java developer will
be a suitable career in the future, as much as I hate to say it, it
won't.  The biggest question is whether American developers can continue
to innovate by creating new and better ways to improve efficiency and
generate profits.  The only thing that has kept us going is the fact
that we keep moving the industry forward.   

Marty

________________________________

From: ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org
[mailto:ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org] On Behalf Of Scott Brown
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 3:42 PM
To: Keith Welch; General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)
Subject: Re: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta

I certainly do enjoy a good debate- there should be more of this on the
list.  Anyway, having said that....

1)  It matters not if we welcome Wipro here are not.  They are coming.

2) There are developers in other parts of the world with the skills to
work at much lower cost

3) Expecting or are depending on government to step in and block access
to those markets is naive.

Whether it's a good thing for Atlanta is academic.  I think the question
is how to differentiate one's self to justify the cost premium.  There
are many things that come to mind:  specialization (niche markets),
vertical (industry knowledge), quality, and local access.

I do think it's possible, however, it does require a solid strategy,
tactical plan and execution of that plan.

=============================
Scott A. Brown
President, Sability
404.521.2001
404.862.3600 - cell
Scott.Brown at sability.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Welch" <kwelch at mindspring.com>
To: ajug-members at ajug.org
Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2007 3:07:40 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
Subject: RE: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta

It is Java related, as you can bet that will be a significant part of
their picture. Their business model would probably involve one onshore
employee (an L-1) per 5-10 working offshore doing the heavy lifting.
There would be 1,000 employees locally. Do the math. With enough
unscrupulous employers in the area, that could locally drive salaries
down below the point that it would make sense to stay in the area. We
have already seen a 15% drop in tech employment in this area since 1999.

You guys can sit around and pretend these Wipro people aren't intruders
intent on making a living taking food off your family's table. I won't.
I have seen how this works, up close and personal. Those of you who are
currently or previously sponsored should be the MOST concerned.
Companies that sponsor are much more likely to jump at offshore
services. It is stupid that we are all so timid talking about this. We
all are in the same job market, and all suffer the same consequences
when there are predatory forays by such companies as Wipro.

We are all in the same situation. You can't get away from this by
competing more effectively with each other. Whether you work for a
company that sponsors and offshores or not, depressed salaries affect
the entire profession. Recruiters, it is pointless for you to remain
silent on this, too. Cut the placements here by 25%, and cut the
salaries down another 25%, and you too, are in a much different tax
bracket. I should point out that I get 5-10 calls a week from
out-of-town foreign recruiters hawking Atlanta jobs, if you wonder where
the low end of the business went.

It is protectionism to protect companies. They are not the ones at risk
here. It is depraved indifference not to protect the people who work
here, and have to pay taxes and pay the cost of living here. That
includes sponsored people. Don't let someone whip such a loaded word as
protectionism out on you when it is factually inaccurate. If your
company wants to sell here, but send work offshore to avoid the cost of
our taxes and cost of living, then its business model just doesn't work.
Creating policies to selectively subsidize businesses to pursue
non-sustainable business activity is the real protectionism. Your
legislators have simply decided to designate us as the victims.

Let me be the first to say it. Wipro, you are not welcome here.

http://www.brightfuturejobs.org/news/index.cfm
<http://www.brightfuturejobs.org/news/index.cfm> 

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: Brian Whitfield / Essential Resources 
	Sent: Aug 2, 2007 11:38 AM 
	To: ajug-members at www.ajug.org 
	Subject: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta 

	Not entirely java unrelated (we'll compete with these guys for
jobs)

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&
articleId=9027525
<http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic
&articleId=9027525>  

	I don't consider this good news.  You can bet most of them will
not be local Atlanta people that are hired.  I've sent the GA
congressman emails stating we should fight this.  Maybe all the ajug
members should do the same.   

	Brian Whitfield

-----Original Message----- 
From: "Trujillo, Marty" 
Sent: Aug 2, 2007 2:37 PM 
To: "General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)" 
Subject: RE: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta 

Leif,

I think it's obvious that dumping 500+ java developers on the Atlanta
market would drive the price paid for an individual developer down.
With that said (written) it's not obvious that Wipro will be bringing
500+ developers with them.  My guess is that Wipro believes that they
will be able to make a nice profit by finding contracts here (the South
East) and then managing teams (made up of people here in Atlanta and
elsewhere) that will implement those projects.  I would guess that they
will try to send as much work as possible to cheaper venues, but that
they are admitting that some of the work will need to be done here too.

I think this is probably a positive event for developers in Atlanta, but
a negative event for developers in the US.  

Respectfully,

Marty

________________________________

From: ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org
[mailto:ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org] On Behalf Of Leif Wells
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 2:18 PM
To: General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)
Subject: Re: [ajug-members] Wipro coming to Atlanta

Brian,

I am not trying to tell you that you are wrong, nor do I know any
insider information about this situation, but in reading the article you
mentioned I don't really see what large effect this will have on our
community as a whole. 

Are you assuming that people from other countries are going to come in
and take these jobs?
Are you assuming that having 1000 (probably closer to 500) more
developers in Atlanta is going to make a dent in the world-wide
Enterprise Java market talent shortage? 
Do you think, since the article cites the "labor force and proximity to
technical schools" as reasons for choosing Atlanta, that they will be
poaching your clients or employees?

I am just trying to get a handle on why you'd think that more local
options Java developers (both the inexperienced and the highly
experienced) makes for bad news. 

Seriously, I would like to better understand why this would be bad.

Leif

On 8/2/07, Brian Whitfield / Essential Resources <
brian_whitfield at mindspring.com <mailto:brian_whitfield at mindspring.com> >
wrote:

There are LOTS of reasons this is bad.  I'll give a big one - If there
is a company in Atlanta that has hundreds of java developers working for
rates typically below those of American workers - what do you think that
does for rates/salaries, etc?  If all of a sudden the market is flooded
with java people - what does that do for supply and demand?  This can
and will affect the IT market in Atlanta.  It has to.  

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