[lists] Re: [ajug-members] Latte Group

[Les A. Hazlewood]

Let's please not go down the RRails path.  Instead, the folks on this
list may be more intesrested in  

Grails: http://grails.codehaus.org/ (my favorite so far)

or

Trails: http://trails.dev.java.net/

Cheers,

Les

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:15:39 -0500, "Rutherford, Robert"
<rrutherf at intercall.com> said:
> 
> Or Seam.  :-P 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org
> [mailto:ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org] On Behalf Of John Brothers
> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 7:00 PM
> To: 'General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)'
> Subject: RE: [lists] Re: [ajug-members] Latte Group
> 
> When you get to level 20, you switch to "epic" status and start afresh
> with Ruby on Rails
> 
> ;-)
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org
> [mailto:ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org]
> On Behalf Of Burr Sutter
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:38 PM
> To: General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)
> Subject: [lists] Re: [ajug-members] Latte Group
> 
> I don't mind taking a beating on the concept of the levels as I
> initially came up with the idea and I'm really happy that some of you
> had some strong opinions on the matter.  The point is to promote
> discussion.  This is supposed to be a learning path.
> 
> Here are some key points:
> - AJAX is only level 20 because it is less vital to most jobs and very,
> very new.  Therefore it shows up at the "end" of the list.  You can
> think of the list as a learning path.  I wanted to throw it in but it
> was hard to say what it was more important than.
> - The concept of multiple paths such as Web vs Swing is very valid and
> something that crossed my mind.  However, I didn't have time for two or
> more paths AND a really accomplished developer should understand the
> client/server event-driven paradigm as well as the web paradigm (IMHO).
> - On the reason DB design (which I'll define in a moment) is rather high
> is simply that most business applications have to store stuff someplace.
> There are plenty of people who do little database related work but I've
> found that I either think from the datamodel forward or from the UI
> backward then meet in the middle tier!
> By database design I mean the concept of gathering end-user requirements
> in the form of reporting output and expected data entry fields, then
> taking that list and defining tables, data types, 1st thru 3rd normal
> form rules should be applied so that you end up with a separate order
> header and order line item with separate code/lookup tables, etc.
> - On the issue of source control being low on the list (meaning well
> into the future), that is based upon the concept that the Pragmatic
> Programmers have found that 70% of projects don't use it.  Plus, every
> company does it differently so that particular skill is that portable.
> - Hibernate is challenging, especially if you don't know understand the
> "R"
> concepts.  I've run into people with 5+ years of experience with
> virtually no understanding of a RDBMS.
> - The HTTP concepts are in there - Level 5
> - On GOF,  I would agree that it should move up the list and be
> encountered sooner.  However, most patterns are implemented in
> frameworks and the new Java developer doesn't really have to implement
> their own, they just build a new Action, Listener, Bean, etc.
> 
> One goal was to keep it fairly simple.  I would suspect that very few
> folks in our community have tried to learn all of these things.  My
> guess is that mostly the consultants and trainers have attempted most of
> these skills.
> 
> The Latte team will continue to tweak the concept and they have
> certainly cleaned up the original concept.
> 
> Now, I don't think anyone called out the fact that I broke up Java
> language stuff from Java OOP stuff.  Or the fact taht I suggested you
> learn JSP before Servlets and both before Struts.   Perhaps ya'll
> weren't paying attention. ;-)
> 
> Burr
> 
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