[lists] Re: [ajug-members] Latte Group

[Rutherford, Robert]

Or Seam.  :-P 





-----Original Message-----
From: ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org
[mailto:ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org] On Behalf Of John Brothers
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 7:00 PM
To: 'General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)'
Subject: RE: [lists] Re: [ajug-members] Latte Group

When you get to level 20, you switch to "epic" status and start afresh
with Ruby on Rails

;-)
 

-----Original Message-----
From: ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org
[mailto:ajug-members-bounces at ajug.org]
On Behalf Of Burr Sutter
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:38 PM
To: General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)
Subject: [lists] Re: [ajug-members] Latte Group

I don't mind taking a beating on the concept of the levels as I
initially came up with the idea and I'm really happy that some of you
had some strong opinions on the matter.  The point is to promote
discussion.  This is supposed to be a learning path.

Here are some key points:
- AJAX is only level 20 because it is less vital to most jobs and very,
very new.  Therefore it shows up at the "end" of the list.  You can
think of the list as a learning path.  I wanted to throw it in but it
was hard to say what it was more important than.
- The concept of multiple paths such as Web vs Swing is very valid and
something that crossed my mind.  However, I didn't have time for two or
more paths AND a really accomplished developer should understand the
client/server event-driven paradigm as well as the web paradigm (IMHO).
- On the reason DB design (which I'll define in a moment) is rather high
is simply that most business applications have to store stuff someplace.
There are plenty of people who do little database related work but I've
found that I either think from the datamodel forward or from the UI
backward then meet in the middle tier!
By database design I mean the concept of gathering end-user requirements
in the form of reporting output and expected data entry fields, then
taking that list and defining tables, data types, 1st thru 3rd normal
form rules should be applied so that you end up with a separate order
header and order line item with separate code/lookup tables, etc.
- On the issue of source control being low on the list (meaning well
into the future), that is based upon the concept that the Pragmatic
Programmers have found that 70% of projects don't use it.  Plus, every
company does it differently so that particular skill is that portable.
- Hibernate is challenging, especially if you don't know understand the
"R"
concepts.  I've run into people with 5+ years of experience with
virtually no understanding of a RDBMS.
- The HTTP concepts are in there - Level 5
- On GOF,  I would agree that it should move up the list and be
encountered sooner.  However, most patterns are implemented in
frameworks and the new Java developer doesn't really have to implement
their own, they just build a new Action, Listener, Bean, etc.

One goal was to keep it fairly simple.  I would suspect that very few
folks in our community have tried to learn all of these things.  My
guess is that mostly the consultants and trainers have attempted most of
these skills.

The Latte team will continue to tweak the concept and they have
certainly cleaned up the original concept.

Now, I don't think anyone called out the fact that I broke up Java
language stuff from Java OOP stuff.  Or the fact taht I suggested you
learn JSP before Servlets and both before Struts.   Perhaps ya'll
weren't paying attention. ;-)

Burr

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