RE: Certification

[cfowler <cfowler@outpostsentinel.com>]

On Mon, 2002-11-04 at 10:02, Westfall Chad wrote:
> Amen Jason!
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jason R. Kretzer [mailto:jason@OpinionOne.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 9:48 AM
> To: ajug-members@ajug.org
> Subject: Re: Certification
> 
> 
> I  have to disagree with this mentality.  You make it sound like people 
> without the time to learn on their own are not worth hiring.  I have a 
> wife and a new child.  Personally, I have the "desire to learn" but not 
> the "time" to learn.  I learn new technologies at work.  Since work is 
> what the new skills are for, I see no problem in this.  The idea that 
> "we only want people who will not only put in the 9 to 5 but will work 
> for the company on their own time as well.", 
<flamebait>

No that is not what I believe we meant.  Use some of your spare time to
learn new technologies for your own benefit.  If it helps the company
then good if not then you have more knowledge when you need a new job

My point is that I feel if you have the desire to learn then you have
the deisre to solve problems.  You have a "fire" that can not be put
out.  For me Computers is a career and a hobby that is who I look for. 

To me solving problems feeds me.  I solve problems with code.  

IMHO the future of System Administration has changed from "RTFM" to
"RTFS".  M = Manual and S = Source.  I do what most people want with
OpenSource code.  If it does not meet my needs, I make it meet my needs.

I'm tracking off course here.  I don't look at spending spare time
working on certs as a high thing to do.  If it comes down to me needing
to do that one day then I'll certainly enjoy it.  I feel I get much more
experience from digging with the guys in the trenches.  Certs allow you
to read about trench digging then test your knowledge on that ability.
When I got my Sailing Certification, I could sail.  But you would not
have trusted your life on my ship.  Those with experience man the helms.
Find a project that many people are working on.  Help out consider the
time spent not consulting time but an investment in education and
career.  Many projects are going around Ajug in the OSS community.  I
currently working on an OpenSource project myself apart from my work.  
Get in with the guys, grab a shovel, and dig.  You may find a fire
growing in yourself and then find that your spare time is going more and
more on these OSS type projects.  


</flamebait>   

> is not the right way to 
> judge candidates.  I have a great desire for knowledge and extending my 
> skills and I must take issue with anyone who says that I don't show 
> initiative(or have good programming skills) because I won't use my 
> family time for studying for a piece of paper that says I knew how to 
> memorize a book for a day.  A good worker in any profession is one who 
> shows integrity, honesty, a good work ethic, and is willing to forth 
> their best while at work.
> 
> Sorry for the rant but I hate it when someone judges those without the 
> time to do stuff on their own time as somehow being lazy(not showing 
> initiative).
> 
> -Jason
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Curt Smith wrote:
> 
> >
> >> Think about the "desire to learn" part.  I would prefer to hire someone
> >> who has a constant fire in their person to learn new technologies in
> >> their spare time than someone that does just the 8-5 bit.
> >
> >
> > Dead on.  Too bad, but gone are the days of being a C programmer day
> > in and day out.  I judge the a candidate on the desire to learn
> > on their own time and initiative with questions like;  what books
> > have you read lately.  And by how _many_ certifications they have.
> >
> > Some folks might be surprised there's a few more java and OO oriented
> > certs besides SCJP.  :)  Personally I need the carrot to get me through
> > all the books and study, so collecting certs is one of my hobbies.  ;-(
> > My credit card shows alot of good books have been bought, read and
> > an immediate good use put that info (more credit card hits for the
> > cert tests) and more tears.
> >
> > I've found it to be almost as expensive as going to GA state.  Isn't
> > our industry forcing us through this type of re-education pratically
> > another degree every 2-3 years just to stay current?   BTW, the
> > JDJ mag / web site has a few comments about current state of complexity
> > and API breadth needed to be _called_ competent.  Hmmm.
> >
> > For example, EJB / JMS is pase, now it's UDDI, WSDL, doc. centric etc.
> >
> > Best of luck to all,
> >
> > curt
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
>