Re: Certification

[Henri Yandell <bayard@generationjava.com>]

I actually have a different problem to this :)

I don't have the 15 minutes spare a day to work on certificates because
that time is already filled with open-source work and writing articles.

These are things which my employers get some indirect value out of, but
probably not as much as I'd like to think they would. Probably more than
getting a certificate would gain them though.

So although I agree with the view that a professional should be training
and learning in their own time, it's not necessarily true that that
training/learning should be for their current employer. In fact, having to
do work outside of work hours intrudes on my other 'jobs'.

Hen

On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Jason R. Kretzer wrote:

>
> *Not to be too offensive but unless you never watch tv, never read
> fiction, etc etc you have spare time. You just choose to use it differently.
> *
> No offense taken.  My original point was not to say that it is unfair
> for employers to expect you to put in time(for work) outside of the 9 to
> 5.  This hearkens back to my chemist days at a small lab.  My supervisor
> was on salary.  We were a productive lab and got accurate results and
> made fairly good profits.  The owner of the lab came in one day and told
> my supervisor "I have decided to send you to these certification
> classes(you must be certified to run drinking water analyses)."  The
> classes were at a campus an hour away, lasted two weeks, and met for two
> hours every night.  When my supervisor protested because we already had
> someone certified to run the analyses,  the owner threatened to fire
> him.  It was completely out of line for the owner to _  expect  _ him to go.
>
> Please note that this is my opinion.  If you feel it is worth
> sacrificing your time, great, go for it.  I have done it myself.  I did
> it for my own personal excellence, not because I was told or expected to
> by an employer.
>
> -Jason
>
> Brian Lee wrote:
>
> >> A good worker in any profession is one who shows integrity, honesty,
> >> a good work ethic, and is willing to forth their best while at work.
> >
> >
> > You are right but a great worker is all of the above plus spending
> > their own time to learn new techs. Which is more attractive to a
> > potential employer.
> >
> > Not to be too offensive but unless you never watch tv, never read
> > fiction, etc etc you have spare time. You just choose to use it
> > differently. I would prefer to spend time with my child than poring
> > over the latest j2ee acronym, but an employer may not.
> >
> > Certs aren't that hard, they probably require about 40-80 hours spread
> > out over however long you want and cost about $150-$300 (including
> > study materials etc). If you "don't have time" to get get a cert on
> > your own time then you have serious time management issues as 15
> > minutes a day for 6 months should be accessible for anyone.
> >
> > BAL
> >
> >> From: "Jason R. Kretzer" <jason@OpinionOne.com>
> >> To: ajug-members@ajug.org
> >> Subject: Re: Certification
> >> Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 09:47:53 -0500
> >>
> >> I  have to disagree with this mentality.  You make it sound like
> >> people without the time to learn on their own are not worth hiring.
> >> I have a wife and a new child.  Personally, I have the "desire to
> >> learn" but not the "time" to learn.  I learn new technologies at
> >> work.  Since work is what the new skills are for, I see no problem in
> >> this.  The idea that "we only want people who will not only put in
> >> the 9 to 5 but will work for the company on their own time as well.",
> >> is not the right way to judge candidates.  I have a great desire for
> >> knowledge and extending my skills and I must take issue with anyone
> >> who says that I don't show initiative(or have good programming
> >> skills) because I won't use my family time for studying for a piece
> >> of paper that says I knew how to memorize a book for a day.  A good
> >> worker in any profession is one who shows integrity, honesty, a good
> >> work ethic, and is willing to forth their best while at work.
> >>
> >> Sorry for the rant but I hate it when someone judges those without
> >> the time to do stuff on their own time as somehow being lazy(not
> >> showing initiative).
> >>
> >> -Jason
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Curt Smith wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>> Think about the "desire to learn" part.  I would prefer to hire someone
> >>>> who has a constant fire in their person to learn new technologies in
> >>>> their spare time than someone that does just the 8-5 bit.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Dead on.  Too bad, but gone are the days of being a C programmer day
> >>> in and day out.  I judge the a candidate on the desire to learn
> >>> on their own time and initiative with questions like;  what books
> >>> have you read lately.  And by how _many_ certifications they have.
> >>>
> >>> Some folks might be surprised there's a few more java and OO oriented
> >>> certs besides SCJP.  :)  Personally I need the carrot to get me through
> >>> all the books and study, so collecting certs is one of my hobbies.  ;-(
> >>> My credit card shows alot of good books have been bought, read and
> >>> an immediate good use put that info (more credit card hits for the
> >>> cert tests) and more tears.
> >>>
> >>> I've found it to be almost as expensive as going to GA state.  Isn't
> >>> our industry forcing us through this type of re-education pratically
> >>> another degree every 2-3 years just to stay current?   BTW, the
> >>> JDJ mag / web site has a few comments about current state of complexity
> >>> and API breadth needed to be _called_ competent.  Hmmm.
> >>>
> >>> For example, EJB / JMS is pase, now it's UDDI, WSDL, doc. centric etc.
> >>>
> >>> Best of luck to all,
> >>>
> >>> curt
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
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