RE: Case Tools

["Doug Bock" <Doug.Bock@togethersoft.com>]

I just could not help my self from responding to the " Visio will do great" comment in your original message. I feel strongly that it is important for people to understand that there are significant sometimes disastrous consequences to that mindset.

 

I have been monitoring traffic on AJUG for almost 2 years, and this is the first time I have chimed in. My apologies if anyone feels my input here was inappropriate.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nedim Colic [mailto:nedim@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:07 PM
To: Doug Bock; Nedim Colic; Les Dunaway; ajug-members@www.ajug.org
Subject: RE: Case Tools

That was really not the point of original question, and while I agree with you on most of this, you have to understand that not all the developers and defiantly not all the managers understand the value of modeling and allocating funds for those tools. It's sad but it's true.

 

BTW, nothing personal, but I don't think it's fair for you to use this list to advertise your company's products. Pretty soon we're gonna be overwhelmed with postings from MS, Oracle, Borland... I don't want that to happen.

 

Nedim.

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Bock [mailto:Doug.Bock@togethersoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:54 PM
To: Nedim Colic; Les Dunaway; ajug-members@www.ajug.org
Subject: RE: Case Tools

Most JAVA apps are being written to address important business needs, the success of which have large financial impact which starts with, not ends with, "completion" of the project, I submit that what is at stake is always many times greater that the cost of whatever development tools are used.

 

With Together ControlCenter there is zero effort in keeping model and code in sync - it happens automatically regardless of what IDE, etc. is used. The code is the repository. This alone justifies the cost of our model - build - deploy platform to the 4000 plus companies ( 46 million dollars worth in 2001 ) that have purchased our product.

 

And for those who believe in limited modeling, point TCC at your code at any phase and you will get models instantly, and an opportunity to document, as some of our own developers do while building TCC, using TCC.

 

BTW, Together ControlCenter is the most expensive "modeling tool" on the market - our rapidly growing list of customers feel it is worth it.

 

Best Regards,

 

Doug Bock

TogetherSoft

-----Original Message-----
From: Nedim Colic [mailto:nedim@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:57 AM
To: Les Dunaway; ajug-members@www.ajug.org
Subject: RE: Case Tools

In the spirit of the original question, I didn't want to get into "what is the right way to do things" discussion. I strongly believe in model-first approach but like it or not there are people and companies out there that would disagree. It's their right to do so. Round trip is huge help but it's not absolutely necessary. If there is a will your model is going to be in sync with your code. Hard yes, impossible no.

 

One of the (lame) reasons I hear people not model first is high price of good modeling tools. That's why I suggested Visio. It costs order of magnitude less than TogetherJ or, God forbids, Rose :-) and most companies already own a copy. I would recommend TogetherJ every time if it wasn't for it's price.

 

The other good one I hear are all these "agile" methodologies that people misinterpret as "we don't have to design any more". But that's a topic for another discussion.

 

Nedim.

 

P.S.

I'm not employed by any of the mentioned companies ;->

-----Original Message-----
From: Les Dunaway [mailto:ldunaway@togethersoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:59 AM
To: ajug-members@www.ajug.org
Cc: Nedim Colic
Subject: Re: Case Tools

Nedim,

First, truth in responding, I'm a mentor for Togethersoft.

Ok, now I must scream loudly  that there are no cases where "round trip is not important"!!!! Even in the case where you are just hacking something for your own use, MODEL-FIRST and NEVER let the model and code diverge!!! From your statement, you accept the first part of my statement "MODEL-FIRST".  PLEASE believe a old-guy who has spent ~ 40 years as a consultant coming in to maintain existing code; to fix a failing project; to extend an existing system; and, far too often, to do post mortems on disasters - the second part of the statement is equally important "NEVER let the model and code diverge!!!" .  Letting this happen WILL result in less robust code, difficulty in support, difficulty in extensions, and (probably) un-employment.

Les

Nedim Colic wrote:

GGEEJHEPAKHFIEENALJJAEDECCAA.nedim@yahoo.com">

For some reason, Gentleware's Poseidon is awfully slow! I say for some
reason because TogetherJ, JBuilder, NetBeans... are all written in Swing and
they work just fine.

I use Rose and TogetherJ, but if round trip is not important to you (you
just need to document things) Visio will do great. It has excellent UML
plugin with everything you need.

Nedim.


-----Original Message-----
From: David McReynolds [mailto:David.Mcreynolds@datalex.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:07 AM
To: ajug-members@www.ajug.org
Subject: RE: Case Tools


http://www.gentleware.com

Its written with swing, so beware.

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Hardin [mailto:matthew@hardin.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:01 PM
To: ajug-members@www.ajug.org
Subject: Case Tools


Besides TogetherJ, are there any other good case tools for use with Java?
I only need a light weight tool that could do basic class and sequence
diagrams for documentation purposes.

Thanks,
Matthew

--
 
 
 

L.W. (Les) Dunaway, Mentor 167 Picketts Crossing Acworth, GA 30101 770-974-4289 Les.Dunaway@TogetherSoft.com
TogetherSoft's mission is "improving the ways people work together." Our flagship product, Together ControlCenter, is the Model-Build-Deploy Platform.  http://www.togethersoft.com